I mentioned yesterday that the group of Anonymous commenters and Jill over at The Third Wave Agenda were absolutely beside themselves with this letter on the NoMoHo Keep Your Pants On site.
In particular this letter really set them off:
“My friend is always kissing guys. People will yell “slut” or “whore” when she walks the hall. I told her people call her a slut because she kisses too much. She said that kissing is all she’s doing, and it’s just innocent fun. What do I tell her?”
Now the important thing to remember is these folks have a totally different paradigm than I do. In that paradigm, girls, young women, should be able to do whatever they want with their bodies, pretty much whenever they want to and anyone who objects to that in any way shape or form is somehow putting women down, a misogynist, and a moron. You can see the comment section there for most of my arguments.
I tackled the issue as it was written – by a friend with a friend who is obviously having some PR issues at school because she apparently can’t keep her lips to herself. To their view, this isn’t the problem. The real problem are the people who are calling her names in the hallway. As I pretty much doubt that any one friend can do much to do crowd control in a high school setting, I focused on the things this girl could do to improve her own image. That buzzing sound is apparently from the anonymous group signaling wrong answer. The obvious right answer is that the people in the hallway should somehow be reprimanded, suspended, given a lecture about “The right of female adolescents to explore their emerging sexuality and that it’s all normal.” My bad. I don’t think anyone’s adolescent friend is going to be up for any of that so I think the advice given by the NoMoHo site’s host was pretty spot on.
Nonetheless, the growls of the crowd seem to be the glaring blind spot for anonymous commentors 1-9 (Isn’t it amazing that folks with such strong convictions can’t seem to bring themselves to put their name with behind it?) So rather than trying to calm the masses in the confines of a comment box, I’m doing it here.
I said:
Well that’s a problem with acquiring a label in the first place. It’s just as difficult for the absent minded, slacker student to pick himself/herself up and start getting serious, or for the nerds/geeks to become social, etc. etc. That may just be an innate part of being part of institutional education, although it happens in families (i.e. the black sheep label) as well. The best defense is to avoid picking up negative labels in the first place.And then:
What I’m actually saying is that you can’t control the behavior of other people. You can however control your own behavior. Wearing appropriate dress and behaving appropriately for the occasion are two excellent ways to start.It sounds very much to me as if you’re saying one should allow others to control one’s behavior/dress/actions.
One anonymous commenter then opined:
That’s wrong, IMO. Peer pressure is enough of an issue for high school kids as it is without adults condoning the bad behavior of one group of kids in order to manipulate another group of kids into good behavior.
OK well one wonders where the adults condoning bad behavior from a group of kids happened. I didn’t condone it. And the letter wasn’t about that either.
Anonymous commenter further says:
There are two issues here – inappropriate behavior on the part of a girl who was seen kissing more than one guy, and inappropriate behavior on the part of other students who were calling her derogatory names and gossiping about her as a result.
I agree that there are two bad behaviors here. The letter however only dealt with the friend trying to help her girlfriend whom she felt was a little too loose lipped.
That you don’t like the behavior of the first girl is no reason to disregard the bad behavior of the second group of students. While they are both inappropriate sets of behaviors, I would say that the second group is probably more in the wrong and behaving far worse than the first girl. Your reaction amounts to little more than “she asked for it, so too bad for her”, which essentially condones and encourages the behavior of the second group.
The second group wasn’t the focus of the letter.
That said, I in no way condone the actions of the other group. I believe that if you have a problem with a person, you need to tell them about it personally. I don’t believe in gossip, and I certainly don’t condone name calling.
OK, so here’s the fun question and answer part!
The sad thing is you say you’re an adult and have teenaged children. Would you allow them to call a girl a slut or a whore because they’d seen her engaging in a few kisses?
First note the not-so-subtle ad hominen very common in these types of comments. The answer to the question though is no, I do not allow name calling at all, even amongst my children with each other. I would let them vent their feelings to me, and we would talk about it. I would encourage them if they had a concern for this girl that they speak to her in friendship privately, but otherwise to just keep their mouths shut about it. I would also encourage them to discourage name calling in their school friends.
Would you teach them that she was asking to be gossiped about and called names so it’s okay to go ahead and hurt her emotionally by slandering her and gossiping about her?
I might take the opportunity to discuss how she got this kind of a reputation as a learning experience. I think learning from our own mistakes and the mistakes of others is always a good opportunity. I’ve already expressed my opinion of slander and gossip.
How would you, as a parent, react if your daughter came home crying one day because a jealous rival began some nasty gossip behind her back based on something someone saw her do, perhaps misinterpreting it, or perhaps exaggerating it along the way?
Actually, I’ve lived that in my own school experience. Overcame it too. Once people saw who I really was it wasn’t a problem any more. That’s the advice I would give my daughter.
Also, would you encourage your children to believe gossip when they had no personal knowledge of the truth behind it?
A great question. No. One of the commandments is not to bear false witness. If my children brought me a story from school I would find that a great opportunity to tie it in with the commandment and how to take the opportunity to really live the faith and how this applies to their lives.
I’m all for appropriate dress for the situation, although I don’t believe girls have to be enshrouded in burkahs in order to be considered “chaste”. I have no problem with personal expression through fashion, and I don’t even have a problem with flirty, sexy clothing for older girls who have the confidence and maturity to carry them off. Note: there is a difference between sexy and “slutty”.
I don’t believe high school teens need to be dressing sexy period. She’s not ready for sex so what’s the point? In fact I believe sexy dress should pretty much be reserved for a wife to wear for her husband.
A different anonymous said:
Also, for the record, “nerds and geeks” rarely have difficulty socializing. Those are labels other people put on them. Their social lives just center around things other than the mall and material possessions and being popular and wearing all the “right” clothes.
As a geek and a nerd myself, I agree. I was using the example of how labels affect people. That’s all.
And yet another Anonymous said
i definitely think that if chastity is so important for girls, it should be at least as important for boys,
I agree. I tell my 15-year-old son that almost daily.
Anonymous said
I disagree with Elena saying that the only actions you can control are your own. As a parent, I’m sure you’re aware that you are able to exert your powers to control your children’s actions. (If not, keep them far from me.)
I can influence my children. I can physically control the little ones. But no, I can’t “control” their actions. They aren’t robots. At some point I have to hope that my influence, the things I have taught them and the example I have set will be the guides they use in their everyday lives.
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